|
Post by tachout on Dec 28, 2010 9:51:50 GMT -7
First please do not take offense as I am not directing this at any one person. Just feel I must ask and will put this out with some explaination.
Why is it that I read or hear all the time that people feel that the track is putting out rules against you racing, or that you would not want to enter a given level of competition because of the rules requirements.
I do understand that you might not want to run a cage, or some of the other safety requirements on your daily driven street car, but the rules are put in place for your safety. I hear of this modification or that modification, and the person posting that they are planing other modifications, and are asking what area their money would best be spent, and if I post up that they are still running factory braking systems, or that they only have a LAP BELT or that they should spend a single dollar on something safety related, that everyone jumps up and blames a track for a rule to require that safety item or they just put me on ignore for making such a stupid sugestion. I know that I have went way overboard on my cage in the coupe, and that I will be overdoing my brakes, but I am planing on overdoing on the rest of the car to, and I feel personally that before you make a car go fast, you first should make sure that you can make it stop, and that if you plan on running like a bat out of ... well you know where, that you can safely take a hit. I believe in the what if, because I have survived a really bad crash. I look at my family now, and am not willing to skimp on what would keep me from coming home to them after the fun.
I would really be interested in hearing what everyone on here has to say on this. Is the inconvience of the extra braking, (and having to clean up the excessive brake dust) and the pain of either having to crawl over a cage, or open a door bar, really all that bad. I have personally gotten in and out of Vince's car with the door bar removed, and it is no different that climbing in and out of any other car, well until you get to the track and the door bar is in. Yes I have also climbed in and out of my coupe with the 10 point welded in place cage, and yes it is a lot more work to do this, but once inside I feel much safer in the car than I did with just the fiberglass around me. I know we have all seen some hairy stuff happen at the track, and have seen close calls, or bad crashes. I feel that the extra that I am doing is worth it, to me. Just wondering why it is that anyone would not want to do the same to a car that they are willing to spend 1000's of dollars on to make go into the 10's.
|
|
|
Post by kyrosnick on Dec 28, 2010 10:21:52 GMT -7
I've heard many times that roll cages/bars on the street can actually be less safe. Your head can impact the bars. If your at a track and wearing a helmet they are great, but for around town you could be worse off with the rollbar/cage.
All cars should have adequate braking. Some cars need upgrades when they make more power, others do not. A new z06 or zr1 are not lacking in the braking area.
For my car, at this altitude it isn't even as fast as a bone stock one at sea level. If you would argue that it needs all sorts of added safety equipment to be as fast as it is, then your saying GM is making an unsafe car that shouldn't be driven around. A lot of track rules are old and when you now have cars that run 10/11s factory stock I think the rules may need an update.
No offense taken at all. I see your point. My car is a car to get me around town, have fun, and enjoy. I may race it a few times a year. I'm not going to sacrifice the daily driver aspect of it just to meet track rules. If I thought a cage wouldn't inconvience me and was a safety upgrade with no additional risk then I would do it. I don't believe that is the case so for now I'll keep my car suited towards a nice street car.
|
|
|
Post by tachout on Dec 28, 2010 13:39:29 GMT -7
Nick this was not aimed at you directly. Last night on another forum I frequent (And there are a few) this exact thing came up on a car that was a Pre 1974 car with rear Drum Brakes, and he has swaped from a strait 6 to a Big Block 572 Crate motor in his car, and had a monster trans behind it and was asking where he should spend his next money and I said Brakes, safety equipment or a cage. Now on his car, unlike in your case, his brakes are way substandard, and do not stop the car. His car is mostly a track car, however he drives back and forth to the track, and has stated several times that he never puts his lap belt on unless they make him.
As for hitting your head on the cage, I will only comment that the rules state that any place that your head would possibly come in contact with the cage, that it be padded by a specific padding. My cage will be padded everywhere with a cover over it. My cage is really tight on the interior of my car, well except where the bars cross at the door. I will just climb over them and deal with it.
Last nights conversation was fresh in my mind, and I see people on here talking safety requirements, and on other boards talking about the go fast parts they got for Christmas or what ever. Imagine a Pre 1974 Musclecar with standard musclecar brakes, (rather than something designed like yours) and trying to stop on those stock brakes.
I am sure if Highpockets chimes in he will tell us how well his stock brakes stop his car. It is amazing with just a little extra speed, and the short shutdown area what a handful it is to slow todays cars too.
|
|
|
Post by kyrosnick on Dec 28, 2010 16:14:28 GMT -7
I completely agree in that case. Just was giving my side of why I won't put one in my car.
|
|
|
Post by Crossfire84 on Dec 30, 2010 10:32:39 GMT -7
Nick this was not aimed at you directly. Last night on another forum I frequent (And there are a few) this exact thing came up on a car that was a Pre 1974 car with rear Drum Brakes, and he has swaped from a strait 6 to a Big Block 572 Crate motor in his car, and had a monster trans behind it and was asking where he should spend his next money and I said Brakes, safety equipment or a cage. Now on his car, unlike in your case, his brakes are way substandard, and do not stop the car. His car is mostly a track car, however he drives back and forth to the track, and has stated several times that he never puts his lap belt on unless they make him. As for hitting your head on the cage, I will only comment that the rules state that any place that your head would possibly come in contact with the cage, that it be padded by a specific padding. My cage will be padded everywhere with a cover over it. My cage is really tight on the interior of my car, well except where the bars cross at the door. I will just climb over them and deal with it. Last nights conversation was fresh in my mind, and I see people on here talking safety requirements, and on other boards talking about the go fast parts they got for Christmas or what ever. Imagine a Pre 1974 Musclecar with standard musclecar brakes, (rather than something designed like yours) and trying to stop on those stock brakes. I am sure if Highpockets chimes in he will tell us how well his stock brakes stop his car. It is amazing with just a little extra speed, and the short shutdown area what a handful it is to slow todays cars too. HISTORICALLY,FEW, SUB 10 SECOND CARS ARE STREET DRIVEN, TO THE TRACK OR OTHERWISE. TYPICALLY SUCH QUICK DRAG CARS USED MARGINAL BRAKES, TO HELP KEEP THE WEIGHT DOWN. FADE RESISTANCE BRAKES AREN'T MUCH OF A SAFETY ITEM ON A DRAG STRIP, WHERE YOU STOP ONCE PER RUN. OFTEN FAST DRAG CARS DON'T HAVE FRONT BRAKES. WHERE THE MAJORITY OF THE BRAKING FORCES ARE GENERATED. I CAN UNDERSTAND THE OWNER OF A PRISTINE FAST, HIGH DOLLAR CAR BEING RELUCTANT TO CUT IT UP TO PUT A CAGE IN IT. I ALSO AGREE THE RULES ARE THERE FOR A REASON. A GOOD REASONS. SUCH RULES AREN'T THERE TO DISCOURAGE ORGANIZED RACING. RACE ON!!! JIM
|
|
|
Post by tom400cfi on Jan 11, 2011 11:21:50 GMT -7
I agree with Nick's perspective on this one. What one does or doesn't do to their car is a personal choice (obviously) and ONE WOULD HOPE, that the decisions made are calculated, thoughtful ones to meet some reasonable criteria.
What is reasonable criteria? Well safety is obviously number 1, bu that DOES need to be weight against practicality. Let's be realistic; we don't need a tank to drive down the street safely. So it's ALL a compromise, and the compromise should provide a reasonable level of safety to match the event/performance/speed, etc.
Nick is right that a current 'Vette is so much stronger, brakes better, handles better...everything, than an older one. Some "safety equipment" essentially comse stok on the car already. Just like a current Z06 comes factory with what is essentially aftermarket heads....it also comes with what is essentially aftermarket brakes, safety cage, and even stability control and airbags; something you CAN'T get aftermarket at all.
I've always wanted a sports car that does NOT have an aftermarket cage. It doesn't fit into MY criteria of having a comfortable, stock looking interior. Likewise, I don't run 9's in my car, I don't do "Bonneville", Silverstate Classic or other such high speed events. I'm taking a calculated risk at Miller, in my car, but I'm O.K. with that risk that I've chosen to take. I feel that I'm making a reasonable compromise with my speeds (120 max), and my safety equipment; helmet, massively upgraded brakes, stock safety equipment, and most importantly, the venues' engineered safety measures -dirt run-off's, energy absorbing guard rails, etc. *I* think that for that venue, in my stockish car, I'm fairly reasonably safe....and I'm O.K. with the risks. For ME, a cage would be diminishing the way that *I* enjoy my car -the way that I use it- and not provide a meaningful increase in my safety.
I'd probably be O.K. with a "Pre 1974 car with rear Drum Brakes, and a Big Block 572 Crate motor"...although I might upgrade the front pads. But I'd KNOW what I've got; 500ish hp? and a stock disk/drum set up in which to stop from about 115 mph in 1/2 mile or less.
KNOWING what you've got to work with is another big part of the equation. I drove around in the '10 Hupp (that's 1910). It's got rear only, mechanical drum brakes. Shoes are about 1" wide -little more than go-kart brakes. In fact, with the axle oil on them, they are probably much worse than go-cart brakes. The KEY is that I know what I'm working with, and I treat the car, and the way I behave in traffic, accordingly.
|
|